Unimpressed
Sat, October 20, 2007
Filed under: Internet, Pet Peeves, Rants
[edit: I rewrote parts of this post, since I realized that my point somehow turned into making mistakes is not acceptable. Hopefully, it's clearer now.]
Ever since my second site (IE users beware of crappy music!) had the first entry in its Guestbook, I wanted to impress people on the internet1. This is why I ultimately ended up wishing for a job in web design and web development2.
I am the first to admit though, that I worked for this HARD. In fact I raged over harsh criticism3, as well as ranted over a person’s “right to tell me off” when his/her site was nothing to be proud of.
On the other hand, this is also the reason why I am hard to impress. These days, anyone can have a site and be able to write something in (mostly) understandable English; let alone have a Live Journal account.
That doesn’t mean that I’m not impressed by people like Jacky of Dubious and – to go further – Nick of NDesign Studio, or Violent Acres whose stories on her early childhood are better than any chicklit4. I spend many hours just staring at their work and wishing I had even half of their talent/artistic sense or imagination in the case of ViolentAcres. I’ll readily admit that I’m currently insanely jealous of Dicle’s comment number on her last post… or even Gonny’s on her last two (for all that I find the actual posts highly pathetic).
In spite of all this, I am most definitely NOT impressed by non-native English speakers having a site/blog written entirely in… *gasp* English. I’m not a native English speaker either. As a matter of fact English is my third language: after Hungarian and Romanian. I did not find English easy, and worked hard to learn it as well as I could. Proof that it’s still not good enough, is my B on CAE exam. The part that dragged my grade down was actually the “Writing” one, where I received barely a “borderline“.
That said, trying to impress me, or making me ‘give you some slack‘, because you’re not a native English speaker, has the exact same effect on, as saying:
I’m only *insert age here*, so I didn’t know any better.
If you have a site in English, I damn well expect you to spell correctly: no ifs-and-or-buts. No one forced you to write it in English. The same way that no one forced you to publish it, thus making it available for anyone tosee. No one stopped you from having your writing proofread either. – Yes, that’s you: Gonny.
You write a rant, trying to expose/undermine popular sites. Great, I’ll definitely be there to lurk/comment/incite things5. Still, lack of correct spelling and/or grammar (on your part) have NO FUCKING excuse. No one stopped you from proof reading it. You have felt a pressing need to publish the post as soon as possible, I can understand that as well. What I can’t understand, however is why you couldn’t have proof read it after that. – Yes, I’m referring to you: Dicle.
My point is: it’s not a bad thing that you’re not fluent enough in English. Just the same as it is not a bad thing that you’re not good enough with HTML/CSS/PHP/etc . My annoyance lies with using the fact that it’s a foreign language as an excuse for your mistakes. You damn well CHOSE to have your work exposed to the public. There will always be someone who is better than you at what you’re doing; just the same as there will always be people worse than you. SO? Does that mean your spelling is less incorrect, or your writing is of better quality?
So what if it’s not your first language? Why is that stopping you from correcting your mistakes? Why must you try to make it seems less of a mistake in the first place? You CHOSE to expose your writing to the public. In other words you chose to make yourself known, hoping to impress people with your qualities. You thought your work was good enough; now you get told it wasn’t. So improve it; justifying the mistake left and right will not make it better.
On a parting note, here is one of my first reviews for my stories on Fanfiction.net:
okay, here we go. Or in your spelling… ere weee gooh. You had so many spelling mistakes! What’s worse, you rated this piece of ** G. They had ‘tongues flicking in and out’! For gods sake person! Please go through third grade!
The only thing I felt on reading that, was a humiliating shame. Not even once, did it occur to me, to try and explain that it was my first fanfiction, or that I was only 16, let alone that English is not my first language. For the record, I thought the story was brilliant (I know better now).
In conclusion: if you want my sympathy, get a different sob story.
P.S. The rant above, applies strictly to webmasters who have sites entirely in English and try to justify their mistakes with “it’s not my first language”.
__________
1 I honestly never really expected anyone to find, let alone like my site at that time.
2 I’m insanely lucky to have landed my first job as a web developer (ASP.NET for those curious).
3 I’ve had (and still have) plenty; I’m constantly raging at my mom for not liking anything I do/make (websites included).
4 I’m an avid chicklit devourer, so this is meant as a compliment here.
5 Feel free to e-mail me, comment on one of my posts or even PM me at Snark forums, if you wrote or found any instance of it.
6 Good as in publicized, and filled with as many clashing points of view as possible: the more the merrier.
Before I read the PS. I was going to comment on the fact that it seems unfair to condemn people who are obviously trying to learn the language. I look at my French efforts and shake my head in shame — so I empathise somewhat.
But surely if these webmasters didn’t write in English they’d be considerably reducing their audience? I know that I can only speak English and read a little French — there isn’t a chance I’d have any clue what they were talking about. So to get their blog heard, or even be read, it must be necessary to write in this language?
Furthermore, there are plenty of people who have English as their first language yet cannot spell properly nor use the correct grammar (myself included! I’m still learning!).
While age isn’t an excuse for things like shabby webdesign — my site was fairly decent when I was younger — it does seem to play a role in writing. When you’re younger you’re trying to master your own language, taking on another makes it even harder… And, perhaps, some people just aren’t as adept as you! Nor do they have the same drive and motivation to become so successful using that language.
I don’t think Dicle’s blog is too bad either. I’ve seen plenty that are worse and some of those two feel the need to review and criticise other sites.
… too*.
I’m not unreasonable: of course everyone makes mistakes. I’m a prime example for that (keep calling a coworker “Jane” though I know very well that her name is “Stacy”; the former just somehow pops out of my mouth).
My annoyance is not that they can’t write correctly from the start. It’s when they call me “unreasonable” because… you know, their first language is not English. That’s the same as saying “I shouldn’t be required to put so much effort in my writing because I can’t speak/write it very well”.
On the other hand, if you don’t put effort into doing it well, you never WILL get it right.
Dicle’s 17 and Gonny 24. I should think that being able to properly use the present perfect tense, respectively not spelling write as “wright” is not such a complex thing to ask. The reason I even pointed out the mistakes, was because they were reoccurring. A slip here and there happens to anyone.
Incidentally, I haven’t noticed that you’d have problems with your English. As far as I’m concerned, it’s great. Then again, I’m not an English teacher nor a linguist
To be perfectly honest (as I had hinted at on Jem’s entry), I find Dicle’s e-drama inciting post to be one of the most forced and poorly thought-out of its kind I’ve seen. It just screams “I want comments! Please comment! Look, I’m saying bad things about people! PLEASE GIVE ME ATTENTION!!!”. =/ I mean, how hard is it to surf around websites and find dozens of websites that are subpar within the first five minutes?
I guess it was successful in getting the attention though!
I’ve never tried to impress with the fact that English isn’t my first language. I’ve only said this because well…
It’s like what Amber said:
“Furthermore, there are plenty of people who have English as their first language yet cannot spell properly nor use the correct grammar”
I never said you were trying to impress me, you were using it as an excuse for bad spelling. I’ve heard this excuse way too many times and it irks me. This is especially annoying, because I’m not a native speaker either. I know it’s not easy, but it can be done. I admit that I really wanted to learn English well, which is why I tried very hard. Others are probably not that interested. But basic English spelling and grammar is not hard at all.
Also, I was more annoyed at the excuse itself, than at you not having had perfect spelling.
I completely agree. Especially the fact that anyone can have a website nowadays, and yet it doesn’t have to consist of anything worthwhile. And blaming all of this on age is just silly (just on a side note) Poor spelling can be annoying, proofreading before publishing could fix this problem. If English isn’t your first language, yes, understandable, but I agree, never use it as an excuse, as you can spell check really quick before putting anything up.
Crissy
Where English is not their native language, I think those who choose to write in English should be cut a little slack. I’ve tried to learn a new language and it is hard. Could I even write one sentence in it? Absolutely not. Kudos to those who have tried to learn it and are attempting.
Just because you can write well in English doesn’t mean others find it so easy. Not everyone is as good as you, you know.
But that’s just IT: I didn’t find English easy. I worked a lot to get here.But that’s not really the point.
I think I somehow misdirected the post, I should fix that. Anyway, the point is not that they’re not fluent enough. The problem is that they’re using it as an excuse, to not get criticized.
Anything someone publishes should be read over and run through a spell checker, but I wouldn’t criticize someone for a few mistakes they couldn’t avoid because of language barriers, and I wouldn’t blame them for using those language barriers as an excuse.
@ Vera: That’s what I understood.
@Jamie: Oh course it’s hard! I completely agree, kudos to anyone who tries to, and I’ve seen that most websites that do don’t make that many mistakes.
I was just saying, if you make an error like: wht instead of what or something simple it’s because there was no spell check, if you make and error like “their” instead of “they’re” it’s annoying but understandable. It depends on how they phrase the excuse if they blame everything on “Oh it’s because English isn’t my first language” well it also depends on what errors they had. But if they try to go back and fix it, nothing really can be held against them.
They should be cut a LOT of slack, if it’s their first English website, especially. They are trying their best for others to understand them, it’s perfectly normal for mistakes to made.
Kaylee: proper use of the present perfect doesn’t seem to hard for me: have +3rd form of the verb, not have +2nd form.
I’m afraid I don’t know the drama behind this to fully appreciate the motivation behind this, but well said.
There are those who write in English to learn the language as the only way to really learn a language is to use it–in which case comments like “Pick up a book” doesn’t really apply. (Then again, if they really wanted to learn, they would not be excusing themselves.) To pick up your mistakes, you really need to have someone go through it with you; proofreaders are good, but they’re hard to come by. I certainly don’t want to read the crap that people write about, especially if I have to make an effort to understand them.
That’s not the case, they have good grammar and spelling.
Compared to your example, they had relatively small mistakes, but since they were made repeatedly, they annoyed me and told them so. They started excusing themselves that English is not their first language.
So assuming that I do give them slack and say: ” your English is decent for someone who’s not a native speaker” wouldn’t that be insulting?
who are you? and why are you coming to my site with drama?
and if you read about me i say i can’t spell ….. so thanks and have fun
I’m not entirely sure why learning to spell is out of the question though.
I simply made a remark. If I wanted to cause drama I’d have written an unrequested review about your site. Also, might I suggest you at least learn to spell your own URL? You know, so people can find you (I changed the one you provided).
and yet you come to my site with proxies and have nothing better to do ?
where the fuck did you find my site and who are you to say what to fix on my site? your not my host nor my mother so go some where
i have nothing eles to say other then
you realy need to get a life
and yet that is my old site so i got that url right
First of all, the URL you provide is no longer available. Second, your site is publicly available to anyone surfing the internet, and so it commenting on it.
And finally, I can say whatever the hell I want. You put your site online, so deal with the fact that there will be a lot of people who won’t like it. No you don’t have to conform to what I said. And frankly, I’d have even forgotten it, had you not answered so childishly and banned me.
well fuck you you are a fat ass fucking drama staring bitch and i dont need your shit on my site …………………..
you blog says it all
you think your the shit
nor are you the shit
or be the shit
your like the loser kid in school that try so heard to act cool but in the end make your self look like a fucking ass tard…..
and i am sorry you think your cool and a big bad internet bully when your a 10 yr old that gets there jollys off to this .
and i know that any one els would think the same fucking way
so what i have to say to to you
ass toy \__o_/
Out of sheer curiosity: how exactly did you come to the conclusion that I’m 10? Especially when I state my current age at the top of my sidebar.
@Barbi: I just wanted to point out that you really did spell your website name wrong, but I managed to fix it up and see the site.
Another thing: what is your current website? Because you have 1 hosted and 1 freewebs. Stick to one please. ^.^
Just felt like pointing that out,
Crissy
crissy i own 5 diff sites i am sorry that you dont have any timeto do that nore a fan bace that wolud look at it
are you a brown noseing shit face bitch?
i think so
yah i am i can say i am god and type it in a side bar and ass toys like crissy would belve it
I’d answer that… unfortunately I have absolutely no idea what you just said. So I’m just going to assume that it’s your usual nonsense.
and your an ass
and will be one the day you die
and god hates people like you
ugly and what you are is a big walking hot mess
you get up and think omg what site am i gonna fuck with today?
so ass toy \__o_/ i will win for every over you
you envy my site yours is just a template from word press?
come on you dont work any where but shoting shit out of your ass
you will be a ass toy from the day you die
@Barbi: Oh, I’m sorry, I was just confused, it’s good if you have more than one website, I was just wondering, not criticizing, by the way, nice choice in layout for the website ^.^ It’s looks cute.
[...] demand that I leave her site, which I obviously kept illegally accessing by means of proxies (see comments on my previous post). I apologize for any spelling/grammar mistake I have overlooked. Will proof read [...]
Most unfortunately for you Barbi I don’t believe in God, therefore your threats are completely useless.
Do I work anywhere? Why yes, I’m a web developer actually. And I do work around 9 to 10 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Why am I using a WordPress template? I’m too busy to create my own right now.
Anything else that bothers you?
@Vera: Really? Seeing your other website the job suits you, good luck in it. 9-10 hours/5 days a week, so full time.
Also: well, it’s a nice template, when you find time, I cannot wait to see the layout you come up with!
Thank you Crissy.
Yes, I know I’m lazy. But after designing and coding websites the whole day, it’s such a nice change to just slap a template on it, and call it a day. But I WILL finish uploading most of the old content and the new layout by the end of this week.
you a fat lazy slob
@Vera: GREAT! I have always admired your website but never taken the time to look through it well enough.
I know, layouts are hard. I took a template and edited it to my liking. Again, laziness just…is, as times.
Say: I just registered a domain (working with it) and was wondering how you came up with lianko? I love the sound of it.
Vera talked about how she came up with Lianko a few posts back. It’s becoming one of the most FAQs. Maybe you need an about/FAQ page Vera? XD
Here: http://lianko.com/2007/09/16/sorry/
Gosh, I didn’t know people were so awesome, mighty, and favoured in society for speaking very incoherently. But also, I think God wants people to love not hate. So I highly doubt “god” hates anybody.
Insults and stupid name calling will not achieve anything but a bad reputation for yourself.
Louise: … or a domain page
@Louise: oh thanks for the link ^.^
FAQ pages, for some reason I love reading those!